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Carl Gustav Jung & Other
Save-The-World Kids ! ?


Introduction / Review / January 2000 Update

Information made available via the "Save-The-World" Internet files indicates that a related mandate may stem from a fundamental(?) attribute of our psyches sometimes called "the soul" as Jung deemed it to be, and some individuals may be more connected to ' IT ' than others.

To date, however, I have preferred keeping the word "IT" to represent whatever this psyche attribute may be, as it became labeled early in therapy. Later, I read that Freud's "Id," as said in English, was a mistranslation; the concept should have been "the It" as it is also written in French: "le ça". The coincidence was most interesting.

My sense of " IT " is of a powerful psyche entity which could somehow 'dictate' what one's life would now be as based on a demanding form of altruism. The mandate, however, was causing me to recognize that only a saint (and not of the 'normal' kind) could ever live up to expectations. Furthermore, " IT " always placed me in mean double-binds. I was damned - with an near certainty of death - if I ever adhered to the mandate, but I as also damned - as in "I must certainly die!" - if I didn't.

Somehow, my "thinking" system (the intellect)  could also not defend itself against what was being mandated, and " IT " had resources to deploy to impose its will. My whole mind/brain system could be taken over emotionally by " IT " with one result. I would then experience the fact that death is (would be) a million times more wonderful than what I was made to feel! Another interesting result of the situation was that, via understanding, the individual now feels responsible for all the sins of the world. Why?

This unexpected result happens because the individual will know that the ones harming others do not understand why they do this, while you do, meaning that you have been 'empowered' to end all of this. However, this "save-the-world" mandate will not be 'something' anyone would wish because, if you do not adhere to the mandate, you then become so much more responsible for the ongoing abuse of people than the abusers. As a mere human, I always considered this to not be quite fair, and even more like a 'cruel' joke by sadistic 'gods'.

Since early childhood, I always had a revulsion of people harming others, and I could also see harm being done where others did not. Now, however, I had acquired a good understanding of major forms of harm inflicted on people, much of which is still not perceived to be "harm." One major form of harm was the socialization process imposed on infants/children so that they will become clone-like reflections of their socio-cultural group.

Most people, including academia experts, have believed that the socialization of a child is a positive endeavor producing positive outcomes, but the opposite may apply; the negative outcomes may outweigh the positive ones, if any. What are WE therefore to "think"  when we read an important commentary made by Bertrand Russell as the result of his experiences with our world as it was not so long ago? "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so (1)."

Is this what WE have historically done to children with our socialization process? Have WE been inflicting some fundamental damage on children to make them into the "average" adults responsible for all the horrors of human history: the wholesale abuses of others, including endless wars and massacres of people? Have we therefore been doing was Buckminster Fuller recognized as a part of his reflections on his own genius status? The child has everything needed to be "a genius," but that almost all children are "degeniused" (2: p. 37).

After many observations and related study, it has become more apparent that the damage done to the child begins quite early in life, and a significant "damage" period may be the transition from the child's psyche being a more holistic system (maybe the "Mother-and-I-Are-One" period, or a more primal one) to Ego development, then onward to becoming whatever we have been throughout human history. Much. however, remain to be understood about this early period in our personal histories, and some interesting speculation have been made in this respect by a number of individuals, including Freud and Jung.

Freud considered the Id to be the part of the unconscious which was the 'driving engine' of the psyche, also called "the libido" which was sexual in nature. Jung, however, suspected and believed that there was more to the unconscious than Freud believed, and that the 'driving engine' of the psyche was not exclusively sexual. As reported by Anthony Stevens (1990, 1999) in his book, On Jung, "To Jung, a son's longing for his mother was spiritual rather than sexual," and that an expressed need to return to the womb indicated 'a need to be reborn' in a renewed act of self-realization" (2: p. 37).

The last word has certainly not be written about the nature of the human psyche and its formation, but Carl Jung did recognize that the human psyche was a bearer of much more than what Freud believed it to be. Jung is a most interesting individual, especially with respect to the "Save-The-World" attribute, and he is in one of the three categories where I have detected this attribute and potentially deadly effects:

(1)  - A psychosis subset in schizophrenia (with hints that such individuals may also be defined to have schizoaffective and bipolar disorders). I would estimate that about 20% of individuals manifesting psychoses in the "Save-The-World" category may commit suicide.
(2) - Eating disorders (especially anorexia) where 'something' within seems to be 'imposing' death on an individual via food withdrawal (anorexia) or purging if food has been consumed (bulimia). The wish to die is also often enough manifested via "feeling suicidal" which may result in suicide attempts. It is estimated that about 25% of individuals with eating disorders will die of causes directly or indirectly related to their eating disorder(s).
(3) - Suicide - where an individual is much more directly challenged with the "Save-The-World" concept underlying the problems of many individuals in the #1 and # 2 categories. This category seems to be the most direct (or blatant) effect of 'whatever' is responsible for the STW attribute / mandate.
I welcome you now to a venture into the mind of Carl Jung during the period when he experienced his STW-related psychosis.

Jung's Save-The-World 'Psychosis'

From 1913 to 1918, Jung went through a period of 'psychosis', or what most modern  psychiatrists would certainly deem to to be "psychotic," one likely result being psychiatric hospitalization and the administration of antipsychotic drugs. The objective would be to stop such psychotic symptoms assumed to be caused by a bio-defective brain manifesting a most serious mental disorder: schizophrenia.
...the whole experience brought him to the edge of madness. Not only did he hear voices, play like a child and walk about his garden holding lengthy conversations with an imaginary companion, but he believed the house to be invaded by spirits. He reports that on one occasion the front doorbell began ringing frantically when no one was there.
I as sitting near the doorbell, and not only heard it, but saw it moving... The whole house was filled as if there were a crowd present, crammed full of spirits... As for myself, I was all a-quiver with the question: 'For God's sake, what in the world is this?' The  they cried out in chorus. 'We have come back from Jerusalem where we found not what we sought.' [3: p. 172]
... But experiences like this warned him how perilous a state he was in and how desperately he needed to keep hold on reality. He would repeat to himself. 'I have a medical diploma from a Swiss university; I must help my patients; I have a wife and five children; I live at 228 Seestrausse in Küsnacht.' in order to remind himself that he really existed and that he was not 'a black page whirling about in the winds of the spirit, like Nietzsche', who went mad when he had similar experiences (MDR, pp. 181-2).
Jung recognized, of course, the irony that he, a psychiatrist, should run into the same psychic material as is found in the insane. He was exploring the same fund of unconscious images which fatally confuse the psychotic patient. But this only confirmed for him the truth of Bleuler's teaching, namely, that there are no fundamental distinction between the healthy and the abnormal mind. Through active imagination he was merely entering realms of the psyche which are normally inaccessible to people when they are sane.
... 'The images of the unconscious place a great responsibility on a man' (MDR, pp. 184-5) [3: p. 173]
... Jung began his own decent into the underworld. the theme recurs in the epic of Gilgamesh, Virgin's Aeneid, Dante's Divine Comedy and even in early science fiction (e.g. Jules Verne's Journey to the Centre of the Earth). Present in all of them is the notion of regression and involution (descent and turning inwards), the turning point (enantiodromia, going over to the opposite) and progression and evolution (ascent and turning outwards).
Thus, when Virgil accompanies Dante in the decent into the underworld, they do not retrace their steps until they have reached the deep point of Hell: only then do the commence the reverse journey - the ascent towards Purgatory and Heaven. Thus spontaneous reversal - Heraclidus' enantiodromia - is a natural expression of the homeostatic principle and is experienced by all those who have gone through a depressive illness. It is also characteristic of what Henri Ellenberger (1970) calls the 'creative illness'.  [3: p. 178]
... There is little doubt that Jung experienced his illness as a hieropharitic realization ["a profound intuition that carries the visionary into the real of the sacred'] or that he suffered any uncertainty about the importance of what he had to share with the world. 'There were things in the images which concerned not only myself but many others also. It was then that I ceased to belong to myself alone, ceased to have the right to do so. From then on my life belong to the generality ... It was then that I dedicated myself to service of the psyche. I loved it and hated it, but it was my greatest wealth' (MDR, p. 184). In old age he declared that he never had lost touch with these initial fantasies and dreams and that all his creative work had come out of them. [3: p. 179]
... What he suffered was not for himself alone but for mankind. [3: p. 180]
Above, I have quoted only a small part - some highlights - of what Anthony Stevens makes available in his book On Jung. Without doubt, the 'spirits' had told Jung that the 'savior' was not to be found in Jerusalem with whom Christ is associated. In other words. Jung was to be such an individual which I have reported on in a more basic conceptual form. An 'entity' seems to exist within the psyche which will, in some cases and for reasons not yet fully understood, impose a "Save-The-World" mandate on an individual.

The Dangers of Reporting a STW Mandate.

Stevens (1999) reports on two books written by Richard Noll. "The Jung Cult was published in 1994, it was that year voted the 'Best Book on Psychology' by the Association of American Publishers. When The Aryan Christ: The Secret Life of Carl Jung was published in 1997 it was to similar acclaim (3: p. 276). Stevens (1999) challenged Noll's often scathing criticisms of Jung, the most serious being that assumption that Jung was claiming to be "the Aryan Christ."

There is no doubt, as reported in the "Save-The-World" Internet files that there are great dangers in our so 'loving' world of humans for anyone manifesting any indication of having a Save-the-World Mandate. A number of reasons exists for such a response, including the fact that WE have not changed much since Jesus was around He was nailed to a cross and, in a basic way, little seems to have changed in this respect.

All who feel they have a Save-the-World Mandate for whatever reason, and the paths to such a recognition vary, will have dreaded telling anyone this aspect of themselves. The greatest terror,  however, will be to accept this fact within oneself. As I have so often said to myself and others I could trust: "What the hell does anyone do with this? How the hell does one survive this? But I had to "tell" even more people, not because I wanted to, but because I 'met' such a kid - "X" - who was in this category but did not survive. This event took all decisions out of my hands because, I then knew for sure that such individuals existed and, especially, that these fatal outcomes occur. Given that I also knew why these suicides would occur, my ongoing silence would mean that I was even more responsible for these deaths than anyone else, and continuing to live would have been impossible.

In a way then, the inner altruistic "ONE" had 'spoken', and there was only one path to take if I was to maintain any integrity as a caring empathic human being. I thanked my mother for having made this possible, although it was not all her doing. Since I was born, I was a force to deal with - with a will often like steel. Yet, I was only requesting that I should not be harmed. That I should only be given what all children deserve if they are to retain what is so wonderful about them. The mother of the 20-year-old male who committed suicide (described below) also reported that he (to be name "Broken Wings") had been much the same as me in this respect. She also felt, however, that her anomalous rapport with her son was related to his suicide, thus explaining her silence about this early part of his life. His mother is not responsible for his death; she is only responsible for the fact that her son  remained as a most special individual. It is our 'human' world which continues to preclude the existence of such wonderful individuals.

A 20-Year-Old Male Died Because So Few Understand.

In the summer of 1999 I encountered a web site related to a 20-year-old male - Broken Wings (a meaningful pseudonym) - who had committed suicide. Indications were that he had been more than special, in positive ways, with hints that a "Save-The-World" Mandate was a part of psyche. I communicated related information to his mother and learned that he had had a very special relationship with her son, a relationship quite similar to the one I had as a child. On September 8, she relayed the following information not made publicly available.

Quoted section:

One of the passages [he] left in his writing [diary] remind me very much of your STW position and I wanted to send it to you.  It is from the same entry from which I quoted to you earlier.  This is the part that struck me:

"ALL I WANT IS PEACE!  and yet I know that I am as far from peace as I've ever  been, and that in order to find it I must wage armageddon.  Deep within the  most sacred chasms of my bleeding heart, guarded fiercely by the iron clad  prison walls of fear, sleeps a mighty giant.  A powerful warrior whose heart  is strong like a lion.  Sometimes in my dreams I see him standing tall and  proud, unencumbered and unafraid, a champion of Valhalla, bred of the blood of  kings, and nurtured by the breasts of heaven.  When my eyes meet his and I see  into his soul, I am overcome with joy as I see that he is me, but alas, try as  I might or might not, I can't seem to wake him from his prison slumber, that  he might free me of my pain and carry me home on the breadth of his mighty shoulders."
Other fragments that I find pertinent are:
"Darkness all surrounding, penetrating even that which I hold sacred. Engulfing my heart and consuming my soul with it's haunting majesty.  It is there I make my greatest stand, in the face of absolute fear, that I find my strength.  By lighting the candle of Love and lifting it to fill my sacred space with it's warmth and light as it guides me ever closer to the Dawn and the promise of a new tomorrow."
"When do you go back for them and when do you move ahead alone, and wait for  them to call out to you?"
"I am the SON OF THE EARTH, thrust into the cosmic playground with a quest of  love and duty.  That which I seek is the healing of the soul."
"Observations of this divine paradox we call life, like some double edged sword; tearing through the very fibers of my consciousness, and ultimately filling the hungry stomach of my soul causing me to erupt in spiritual revelation like a sleeping volcano that has just received a sacrifice."
He goes on, in different words saying the same thing.  A thirsting for a  fulfillment which seems to elude him and frighten him.  A quest, battles,  warriors, championing and simultaneously losing patience with the faint  hearted.  Self love and self hatred.  Indecisiveness, anger, love, doubts.

A very young man with some ancient aspects.  Maybe introspection and  intelligence are anathema to life!

Quoted section ends.

I responded to this information by supplying his mother to relevant information available on the Internet. I also emphasized that the interpretation given, especially the ones related to "blaming a bad mother" for this outcome - meaning that she would be causal for her son's suicide - should be taken with a grain of salt. The most important reference (of five given. See Note 1) related to her son's experience was provided in  "The Far Side of Madness," by John Weir Perry. Book review by Robert Couteau. Published in The Bloomsbury Review. March / April 1990. Available at -
http://members.tripod.com/more_couteau/psychosis.htm N/A. Archive Link.

Quoted section:

These processes, constructed in the language of emotion and image, yielded, upon closer scrutiny, numerous, typical parallels to myths and obscure rituals of antiquity:

The individual finds himself living in a psychic modality quite different from his surroundings. He is immersed in a myth world ... His emotions no longer connect with ordinary things, but drop into concerns and titantic involvements with an entire inner world of myth and image.
Although this imagery is of a general. archetypal nature (''imagery that pertains to all men and all times''), it nonetheless involves the individual issues and concerns of the person undergoing the crisis. Once lived through on this mythic plane, and once the process of withdrawal nears its end, the reconnection to the specific individual problems must again be encountered and worked upon.
The archetypal affect-images await a kind of reinsertion into their natural context in the complexes, and their projective involvements in outer life.
... Thus, the kingship archetype offers a fitting pattern of internal evolution, one passing significantly through dismemberment, reconstitution, and rebirth of psyche, paralleling the ''outer'' historical processes (which themselves were probably based on inner, archetypal correlates) and ending in the eros-era described above. In this context then, the return to love in the psychotic journey, after first passing through the kingship imagery, is an inner-passage following a rather amazing ''outer'' historical correlate.

Quoted section ends.

Shortly after communicating this information about her son, his mother ended the communication with me, and the reason was maybe related to an important realization about the son she knew to be most wonderful since early childhood. She maybe also had been intuitively correct about censoring the 'psychosis' information given me because her son would likely be given the "psychotic" label and be deemed to have been "schizophrenic," thus taking away almost all she had said about him having been a wonderful human being. However, he was more wonderful, as I explained to her, than she could have ever imagined, and for reason which have been grossly misinterpreted - especially with respect to the nature of the mother's 'causal' role in later 'psychosis' - even by individuals like John Weir Perry quoted above.

Her son committed suicide in part for the following reason given by Stevens (1999):

Properly understood, the mental suffering involved can transcend the usual life-maintaining experience of a psychiatric breakdown because it brings insight, vision, and understanding. Tragically, most doctors and most contemporary psychiatrists do not understand this. As I have already pointed out, they approach mid-life disturbances [the 'psychosis' Jung experienced, or 'psychosis' manifested by youth which may have a different etiology] not as an opportunity for for spiritual transformation but as a sickness to be suppressed. Their treatment is designed not to promote individuation but to bring about what Jung caricatured as 'the negative restoration of the persona' - that is to say, a reversion to the status quo ante.  [3: p. 179]
Perry's work in traditional psychiatric settings led him to conclude that people in the thrall of an acute psychotic episode were rarely listened to or met on the level of their visionary state of consciousness. Instead, every imaginable way to silence the ''patients'' -- to ignore and disapprove of their nonrational language and experience -- was called into play, serving only to further increase their sense of alienation, isolation, and ''madness.'' (Although this book was first published in 1974, things have not changed substantially in state mental hospitals or community residence settings. To explore the strange imagery of psychosis with a client in a counseling session is viewed as ''feeding into their delusional system'' and is severely discouraged by both psychiatrists and social workers.) [The Far Side of Madness]
Stated otherwise, given contemporary beliefs, individuals (and especially youth) who are beginning to experience a 'psychosis' - of the kind Jung experienced - will have received related messages from their social world: "This is a serious mental disorder!" Therefore, they will generally not tell anyone what has been happening in their minds mostly because they dread the super "FREAK" label likely to be given to then, but they are in even greater dread (more like terror) at their own socially programmed belief also producing the "FREAK" self-label.

The Child's First "Psyche" State of Being.

Buckminster Fuller was a special individual - likely another Save-The-World- Kid (Note 8) - who described the primary state of the newborn child:  "Einstein's genius was synergetic. All genius is synergetic. All children are born geniuses, but most are swiftly degeniused by the power structure's educational system. In the guise of education, the system deliberately breaks up inherently holistic considerations into "elementary" topics." [2: p. 37. See Note 7 for a listing of all similar staements made by Buckminster Fuller.]

Harry Stack Sullivan, another individual with significant insight into the human mind - who was also a student of schizophrenia as Carl Jung had been (Note 2) - described the child's primary psyche state as reported below by Doug Davis who teaches at Haverford College:

According to Sullivan's  hypothesis all that the infant "knows" are momentary states, the distinction of  before and after being a later acquirement. The infant vaguely feels or 'prehends' earlier and later states without realizing any serial connection  between them. . . .He has no awareness of himself as an entity separate from the rest of the world. In other words, his felt experience is all of a piece, undifferentiated, without definite limits. It is as if his experiences were  'cosmic'. . . .

Was The Virgin Mary a Bad Mother?

There has been a long history in psychiatry and psychology of not only negatively perceiving the child (who must be socialized), but also "blaming only mother" for anything deemed "negative" which happens to an individual. This ideology, however, even seems to apply with psyche events - the 'psychosis' - that Carl Jung experienced. For example:
The concept of the ''Reorganization of the Self'' is central to Perry's understanding of the psychotic journey. Extreme damage to the self-image, through the mother's withholding of love, was found to be the typical pattern involved in the cases he studied. As a result, the injury to the self-image is so severe that, during a crisis situation the psychic energy leaves the higher levels of consciousness and is attracted instead to the psychic depths, where an archetypal process of renewal commences. The goal of this energy is not only ''that self-esteem is restored, but . . . that the capacity to love and be loved is generated.''  [The Far Side of Madness]
My observation of individuals with an activated Save-The-World mandate - which includes myself, the 20-year-old male suicide victim described above, and Miriam - the opposite applies with respect to the mother / child situation. Basically, the child manifested a reluctance to 'leave behind' -  'disconnect' -  or 'differentiate' - from the 'primary' "Mother-and-I-Are-One" situation, thus 'hindering' the development of an apparently "healthy Ego" as professionals would describe the situation most often in pathological terms.

It is the apparently "healthy Ego," however, which has been producing the "average" individuals responsible for all the horrors of human history, meaning that "normal" for humans may represent a yet unrecognized 'pathology' for thinking beings in the universe. Who, however, would recognize this serious problem, if it exists? Are they not the ones who maybe partially escaped being totally severed from their inner "ONE" - let's say their first state of being - as it is described above by Buckminster Fuller and Sullivan?

As the result of cumulating information, I am now ready to speculate - with a decent amount of confidence - that "mother" is implicated in the existence of Save-The-World Kid, but only with respect to mothers making it possible for a child to remain "connected" to the inner "ONE" - 'who' is also not exactly what Jung considered "IT" to be. An individual may then recognize this "connection" - existing in degrees and with variations - to have been present from the earliest age, and they may grow up feeling (maybe knowing) that two 'beings' exist within, with major life-threatening problems likely to occur at some point in their lives.

The power of this "connection", however, is most evident in the type of 'psychosis' Jung began to experience in mid-life, at age 38. It was almost like the inner "ONE" had left the individual trod along until "IT" 'decided' to impose its 'will' as reported below.

Perry's work with persons in acute stages of psychosis revealed that their pre-psychotic personalities were the true source of the ''sickness.'' By living an increasingly narrow-minded, mundane, and emotionally impoverished life, the psyche had finally reacted by forcing a transformation in the form of a ''compensating'' psychosis, during which a drama in depth was enacted, forcing the initiate to undergo certain developmental processes.  [The Far Side of Madness]
Jung had certainly not become "increasingly narrow-minded, mundane, and emotionally impoverished life," and this situation certainly did not apply to Jesus, myself, Miriam, and others. Instead, as noted by Stevens (1999), Jung represented a situation illustrating "... what happens when you climb to the top of the ladder [or maybe heading there for the ones having these experiences at a younger age] - and discover it's against the wrong wall!" Even more significant, is the fact that the onset of Jung's 'psychosis' was related to the inner "ONE" letting him know - via the best known Save-The-World metaphor - that something major was to be done by him for the benefit of all mankind. His work was to be in the realm of knowledge and understanding, or what may be called "revelation." He was to let others know, via his experience and related studies, that there is much more to the human mind/brain system than his colleagues believed.

Jung was venturing into the 'world' of the human 'soul', into being at the service of the "generality," into being the servant of the inner "ONE", which means being at the service of mankind. He would venture into exploring what all prophets of old had recognized to be so desperately wrong with humans for such a long time. Of significance is Jesus' emphasis that the so-called "Kingdom of God" (meaning still unknown) was within each one of US,  but that the road to "connecting" would involve again becoming as a child, thus implying a likely "reconnection" to 'whatever' had once been the case. What then is so "special" about "being a child"? Did Christ become our icon Save-The-World Kid because he had a bad mother, or had his mother been special - not 'normal' - in some yet unrecognized ultra-positive way?

Is it possible that the first "psyche" situation for the child - "the Mother-And-I-Are-One" - should have been maybe transformed into "the Universe-And-I-Are-One" perception or state of being? If so, how would such an outcome be possible, and how would it differ from what has traditionally been done that leads to the apparently 'normal' Ego development in humans? Insights in this respect were made possible as the result of meeting a most special individual in November, 1998: Miriam.

The Miriam / Anorexia STW Connection - A "no thank you" Society - Justin's Contribution and Insights About the Problems of Some Exceptional Children.

Miriam represents my first "personal" encounter with someone having a history of anorexia and a possibly related Save-the-World attribute. Thinking that she may be a "FREAK," as her mind had been 'socialized' to believe, she had also suspected that telling psychiatrists anything about her inner realities would have likely produced a "schizophrenia" diagnosis, or other pathological labels as she recognized by reading about "mental disorders." One reason for this was Miriam's ability to access a part of the brain during awakened state; this is the part most of us only use during REM (Rapid Eye Movement) sleep when we are dreaming.

For me, this was the first indicator that Miriam had greater access to a very important center of our mind/brain system, and that she may therefore have access to information about ourselves - all of humanity - that some of us may be seeking. Within about 3 months, she had revealed a number of wonderful attributes, including the belief that she was going to give birth to a Save-the-World kid! A psychiatrist hearing this would have been thinking "schizophrenia" because "Save-the-World" 'delusions' for females in the Christian world differ from one ones males manifest; males can perceive themselves to be Jesus Christ, or even God, given the traditional association of masculinity with these entities. The best females can therefore hope for, to symbolically represent an inner STW mandate, is to be like Jesus' mother and therefore give birth to a STW kid.

Meeting Miriam was a wonderful learning adventure, not only about all aspects of her (past and present), but also about the Save-the-World concept. A major problem at the time was determining if a person had apparently passed that 'point' of no return. That is, as expressed in the sathewo1.htm file, I then felt that the status was related to thinking - to the point that an individual could maybe not anymore be regressed to "being normal" as socially constructed and defined. By March, 1999, I decided to use a piece of knowledge as a test for a Save-the-World status. A few years before, I had watched a television documentary which mentioned that some Australian Aboriginal languages did not have the word "thank you," this having great meaning at the time (Note 3).

Upon hearing this, I imagined a human world where no one would ever think of not helping another individual, meaning that there would be no need for the phrase "thank you." It was also most interesting that Australian Aboriginal People had a history of being in tune with one's dream world, as in even referring to life's history in terms of "dreamtime," the state of mind that Miriam is able to access in awaken state. (Information on "dreamtime" is available at - http://www.joyzine.zip.com.au/australia/dreaming/dreaming.htm N/A. Archive Link. Alternate Link. Alternate Link.)

For the first time, I therefore used The "Thank You" Test with Miriam, knowing than anyone not "seeing" beyond their socialization - as in not being able to see the beauty of the human potential - would think that a world with "no thank you" would be a most horrible world (Note 4). Miriam's answer to the question was in the STW category - that we would therefore be living in a wonderful world - greatly intrigued me and inquiries related to her answer followed. She replied that such questions are given to "the kid" inside - a 'boy' - who answers all the most difficult questions - and the answers are most often what university professors do not appreciate. With humour one day, she wrote (a paraphrase): "Now I know what to do in my criminology course. Whenever I have the answer to something, I'll just reverse it and then I'll make 100% in the course!" The implications of this are monumental for those deemed to be law professors and are experts in 'something' (Note 5).

In replying to the "no thank you" question as she did, Miriam again revealed her most special nature, as suspected from my first encounters with her, but there was more to the story. She  reported that, as a child, she was vehemently opposed - stubbornly resistant - to saying "thank you." Many, including probably all professionals in child psychology, would deem such a child to have a potentially serious problem (likely of the pre-oedipal "omnipotence" kind), but another interpretation is possible. The child may well be resisting socialization - the equivalent of severing the connection with one's most inner Self (as Jung labeled it) - and the resistance to saying "thank you" is a manifestation of a 'will' to not be disconnected with something most important to the individual. For Miriam, this connection was maintained, as it became apparent at the worse of her anorexia during late adolescence when she was vividly experiencing the "mother-and-I-are-one" pre-oedipal state of mind.

Others somehow also remain connected to the primary Self which is activated when answering most difficult questions. Because Miriam has "the kid" within who answered the "no thank you" question, it was not possible for her to articulate the thinking process as the question is being answered, but this was not the case with Justin. In his case, my 'unconscious' was letting me know that he was connected to his inner Self much more than other humans would be, and I decided to test this using the "no thank you" question. His response, given in full below, also informs us about what a connected individual has been going though since childhood.

Email from Justin: September 24, 1999. Subject: heaven

Hello Pierre,

First reaction to your most recent mail: the quality, quantity, and potency of your thinking and thoughts can be a little overwhelming. So:  for now I'm just responding to one item, particularly since you said you are awaiting answer ["anything for you, within 'reason' of course"]

Tangent:  it is things like this that always used to get me in trouble during school years, as far back as elementary school from what I can remember; haven't quite figured out how they get me in trouble now. Problem:  the problem I am having is that the answer comes to me so quickly and easily that there must be something wrong, I'm afraid I'm missing something here, but here goes (since I can't think of any other answer anyway at the moment)
My answer:  {'oh boy, now he's going to think I'm a flake'} that world would me heaven; we now live in hell. Probable unstated reaction of most people to my answer:  "this guy is nuts!" My used-to-be-reaction:  withdrawal !!! My reaction now:  fuck it!
My off-in-left-field explanation:

Step 1.  Let us assume for a moment that one were to question others as to how they go about determining what is right, moral, or ethical (probably "ethical" the best word here).  I think a frequent conclusion would be something along the lines of  (A) the greatest good for the greatest number of people. I would have difficulty with such a conclusion however. To save time and space, I will just jump to the type of conclusion I might make:  (B) the ethical view will be one that takes into consideration the overall well-being of the other person.

Step 2.  Let us imagine a world where "thank you" is unknown, foreign, not needed, not a part of the reality [not just the words but, "the picture", the experience; we could even assume a world where everyone is "thinking in pictures", so even the "picture" of  "thank you" does not exist.
Step 3.  Now let us move back to language and [doing as you might recall one of my favorite things] and try to figure out what the assumptions are for the expression "thank you."  My conclusion anyway would be that there would need to be the assumption that the natural state of humans is basically selfish, self-centered, and self-serving. So, we are all pretty independent and apart-from-others.  {I am indeed having trouble putting this into words: -- me speaking}. So, "thank you" really means or assumes something like "wow! you really recognized my existence" or "I really appreciate your coming out of your shell here to notice me" or "I appreciate your leaving your self-satisfied state" or "must have been a lot of trouble for you to bother with me."
Step 4.  Now imagine world where none of this is needed - reality of the other exists - value of other exists - everyone can take it for granted that will be treated well since that is the natural state - ethics, as defined in Step 1. (B) is operating.
Well Pierre, that's about it, way off I'm sure, but the best I could do since you asked and, as someone once said:  "Dishonesty, especially with self, is quite soul-deadly!"
Note about Justin: His favorite philosopher is Ludwig Wittgenstein who is known for the "picture theory" of meaning. References: Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889-1951). Available at - http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/w/wittgens.htm . From Justin's email, it should be recognized that connected children will generally use "withdrawal" when asked a question and something within their mind/brain system gives then an answer recognized to not be socially unacceptable, as Miriam has had to do in her criminology course. The meaning? Are WE not very much like the Borg on Star Trek? I have also wondered about how Justin has managed to survive because it is likely than many in his situation would become psychotic at a young age and/or kill themselves. Nothing is yet known about how these kids manage to survive, and what personal price is paid (being paid) for their survival.

I have suspected for some time, however, that a major group of 'mental disorders' - at least for a sub-group so labeled -  are of an "inner connection kind" producing result often receiving the Schizophrenia to Bipolar (Manic Depression) labels. However, in the "Personality Disorder" category, there may well also be a sub-group which resulted from individuals being highly threatened by the same "connection" (for good reason) and somehow managed to 'disconnect', thus leaving them quite impaired but often still highly functional in society, except maybe for quite serious depression problems of varying intensity over time.

On Psychosis:

"Our greatest blessings come to us by way of madness, provided the madness is given us by divine gift.."
- Plato (Phaedrus)
"If the human race survives, future men will, I suspect, look back on our enlightened epoch as a veritable Age of Darkness... They will see that what was considered 'schizophrenic' was one of the forms in which, often through quite ordinary people, the light began to break into our all-too-closed minds."
- R.D.Laing

Quotation Source.

From an excellent rendition of the concept of "Psychosis" by Jeffrey A. Schaler, Ph.D. published in the online magazine PsychNews International: - http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~expert/pni1_1.b.htm N/A. Archive Link Alternate Link. Alternate Link. Reading the full text of the article, partly quoted below,  is recommended. More information about Jeffrey Schaler: http://www.enabling.org/ia/szasz/schaler/index.html N/A. Archive LinkReading  the article Psychiatric 'Science" is also recommended: http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~expert/IPN/ipn2_6e.html N/A. Archive Link. Alternate Link.


The term psychosis is used to define and explain mental "illness." People labeled mentally "ill" are said to be "psychotic" and are usually labeled "schizophrenic." Public and clinical policies are implemented toward these people based on the definition and explanation of psychosis. Mentally "healthy" people are not considered psychotic. This distinction between mental health and mental illness is false. People considered mentally healthy can be psychotic as well. That is not to say that they are mentally ill. There is no such thing as mental "illness"; the mind can be sick only in a metaphorical sense (Szasz, 1987). Disease refers to physical processes or conditions.

The word psychosis comes from the Greek psukhe, which means "soul." Combined with the suffix -osis, which means "process" ; or "condition," it is defined as "giving of life." The suffix -osis is also used to refer to physical disease conditions, as in tuberculosis, sclerosis, and so on. We label mental confusion as psychosis. Confusion means "to pour together," "to mistake one thing for another." In the same sense, psychosis refers to a way of thinking and speaking. It depicts an  apparent failure to differentiate between the symbolic and the real...

I'll conclude by giving two complementary examples of confusion about psychosis. The first concerns the mistaken notion that "hearing voices" is a form of psychosis. The second concerns the mistaken notion that "curing" psychosis is not in itself a form of psychosis. Hearing voices is often considered a sign of psychosis as a mental illness. I submit that not hearing voices in one's head is undoubtedly the more bizarre phenomenon. Hearing voices in one's head is normal. We generally call it our conscience... In our discussions of the deconstruction of mental illness, my students inevitably ask, "What about those persons who are schizophrenic? They hear voices telling them to do certain things."...

Here is a scenario described by a practicing psychiatrist who believes not only in the existence of mental illness but also that he can successfully "treat" it. He described a person walking across a busy road who thinks that he will not be struck by a car because he is Jesus. The psychiatrist considers such a person psychotic (mentally ill) because (1) he believes he can alter events external to himself by thinking in a particular way and (2) he believes he is Jesus. The psychiatrist then went on to say that he believed that he could "restore autonomy" in that individual by administering certain neuroleptic drugs. But that's a contradiction in terms. How could he restore autonomy by administering drugs?
In the first case, the person crossing the road makes a false claim about himself ("I am Jesus") and believes the real world ("cars will not hit me") is consistent with his symbolic world ("because I am Jesus"). In the second case, the person makes a true claim about himself ("I am a psychiatrist") and believes that the symbolic world ("I can restore autonomy by the use of drugs") is consistent with his real world ("because I am a psychiatrist").
The person labeled psychotic is confused in his thinking because he believes the real world is in effect his symbolic world. The person labeled psychiatrist is confused in his thinking because he believes the symbolic world is in effect his real world. What's the difference?

While psychosis as mental illness is a myth, psychosis as confusion is not. Accurate perception of reality is the antithesis of psychosis, i.e., the person with accurate perception can clearly differentiate the symbolic from the real and the metaphorical from the literal. Accurate use of the term psychosis in effecting public and clinical policies must consider the validity of the distinction between socially unacceptable forms of psychosis - designated mental illness - and socially acceptable ones. That difference is a function of mores, not objective science.

From: Mental Breakdown as a Healing Process by John Weir Perry, MD.  Interview with JW Perry - excerpted from When The Dream Becomes Real: The Inner Apocalypse in Mythology, Madness, and the Future by Michael O'Callaghan Available at - http://www.global-vision.org/interview/perry.html N/A. Archive Link.

MICHAEL O'CALLAGHAN: How does one define so-called schizophrenia?

JOHN WEIR PERRY: Jung defined it most succinctly. He said  Schizophrenia is a condition in which the dream takes the place of reality." This means that the unconscious overwhelms the ego-consciousness, overwhelms the field of awareness with contents from the deepest unconscious, which take mythic, symbolic form. And the emotions, unless they're hidden, are quite mythic too. To a careful observer, they're quite appropriate to the situation at hand.

The way "schizophrenia" unfolds is that, in a situation of personal crisis, all the psyche's energy is sucked back out of the personal, conscious area, into what we call the archetypal area. Mythic contents thus emerge from the deepest level of the psyche, in order to re-organise the Self. In so doing, the person feels himself withdrawing from the ordinary surroundings, and becomes quite isolated in this dream state.
O'C: Did Jung really see this as a healing process?

PERRY: He did indeed! He believed that "schizophrenia" is a self-healing process - one in which, specifically, the pathological complexes dissolve themselves. The whole schizophrenic turmoil is really a self-organising, healing experience. It's like a molten state. Everything seems to be made of free energy, an inner free play of imagery through which the alienated psyche spontaneously re-organises itself - in such a way that the conscious ego is brought back into communication with the unconscious again...

So these are the outstanding features. All kinds of imagery comes tumbling across the field of awareness. It's like the mythological image in a perfect stained-glass window being smashed, and all the bits and pieces being scattered. The effect is very colourful, but it's very hard to discern how the pieces belong to each other. Any attempt to make sense of it is an exercise in abstraction from the actual experience. The important thing is to find the process running through it all.
The thing that I'm particularly interested in here is the clash of opposites. The individual usually has a feeling of intense fear, as he contemplates what seem to him to be the forces of disruption, of chaos, of the Antichrist, of the Communists - whatever the ideology happens to portray as "evil." In any case, these forces are seen as tending to destroy the world, and the "good guys" are those who would try to preserve it. This is the element I try in particular to explore, because it connects to all kinds of other general cultural and political phenomena that we could talk about! What makes this visionary state appear so very psychotic, is that an individual with a paranoid ideology or ideation tends to identify with everything that comes up from below, and one is very apt to get confused. A woman who identifies with the Virgin Mary, for example, may then believe she's about to give birth to a redeemer. Actually, there's many a pregnancy test that we do in these emergency situations, you know, because you can never be sure! And the men are very apt to feel they're specially elected to be the second coming of the Messiah; or, if they're very paranoid, a great political of military leader such as Napoleon or Hitler. The delusions of grandeur become very evident, for as soon as one's identity gets hung up on such archetypal identifications, there immediately arises the "enemy out there" who is trying to undo what the supreme power has brought about. There is a deeply-felt fear of being toppled, a feeling of immense danger. This again has many cultural connotations...
O'C: So if the person experiences himself as God, might he then also feel the Devil is out to get him?

PERRY: Yes, that's pretty much adequate. If one is Christ, the Anti-Christ is around somewhere at work; and if one is in a supreme position of political rule, then there is sure to be a disruptive revolutionary political party on the other side of the planet which is trying to topple you! It's rather scary, when you consider that the collective unconscious projects such huge shadows upon whole nations or superpowers...

A New Perception Possibility for 'Psychosis'

Broken Wings had written the following which had made his mother believe that he had been taking LSD, but this was not the 'problem':
A mind is a very fragile tool, if you try to expand it all at once it will crack, you got to stretch it out between expansions, let it get used to itself and even ponder a few questions for a while, then blow it up again.
As I read this I remembered that Miriam reporting similar experiences; she had been on the floor, screaming, with the feeling that her brain would explode. I then requested a description of these experiences, as best as she could supply about the situation. In an August 16, 1999 email, she confirmed what I had remembered her saying and elaborated on these experiences:
Actually, this is the way it feels whenever 'let' myself  'listen' or 'watch' what's going on there 'in my head'. Then suddenly, will see pictures, images, moving around in sort of turmoil, at a speed I just can't follow, and with voices and faces too fast to understand, and then all feel like 'going out' somewhere in all directions, as if my 'brain' will just expand throughout all the universe... 'That's when I feel like either scream, run, or choke... or cry. I don't know if makes any sense, at least doesn't to me.
I then told Miriam that her experience was almost identical to the experiences that a friend of mine - Craig - had reported when I asked him to describe as best as possible the manic episodes which would result in hospitalization for two to three week periods. He would also be given various drugs which essentially turned him into a 'zombie' and, in my opinion, the 'experts' were doing little to really help him (Note 6). In his case, however, his episodes only included rushing thoughts, while Miriam was also experiencing images and sounds moving at incredible speed. Yet, she had not told anyone about these experiences for fear of what the diagnosis would be. In Response to this I told a colleague that "Miriam should be given a fuckin' medal for being almost superhuman," but that the world does not quite work this way, especially in psychiatry.

So what is psychosis? The hints at the moment are that there are two types of connections to what could be called the human unconscious.

1. During awakened state an individual may have access to that part of the brain activated during REM sleep when we dream.

The act of dreaming, however, takes a lot of processing given that a dream involved staging a 'play', creating the props, etc., meaning that an "intelligence" is acting behind the scene and it is doing so much more than what is 'observed' in the dream. Our consciousness, however, is a very slow processor which is nonetheless able to cope with access to dream center, even though this may be a bit frightening when it occurs in awakened state. Without doubt, these individuals would be labeled schizophrenic because, as one reported on television in 1999 during Schizophrenia Week, he would see individuals morphing in front of him, going from their age to older, and then younger. This was given as the apparent proof of his illness, but is this really a sign of mental disorder? Or, could it be a four-dimensional visual skill: an individual perceiving "visually" another human being (or all things) not as static, but existing over a life span?

To imagine the other "connection", we can maybe imagine what we would "see" or "feel" if we were, let's say, connected to the intelligence - the 'processor' - creating the dream that most people only experience while sleeping. This may well be what is being experienced when an individual like Craig or Miriam were experiencing what is called "manic episodes." In Craig's case, almost all his manic episodes were precipitated during a period when he was falling in love with someone, and the first "falling in love" for individual occurred with their mothers during the pre-oedipal period. Therefore, for him, this experience was maybe essentially establishing a 'connection' to his unconscious resulting in the diagnosis he received. Craig was therefore experiencing in a lesser way what Miriam also did, except that she could 'see' / 'hear' ' 'feel' all the information the unconscious processes: thoughts, images, and sound, and probably even tactile sensations.

To understand this better, consider the fact that the most powerful computer in the world still cannot process enough information to be able to do what the human brain - with our eyes - does when doing visual recognition of things from all angles viewed, this being only a small part of what our unconscious does. Now imagine what a slow computer (our consciousness) would 'see' if it was hooked up to the most powerful computer in the world? Would not the slow computer only report that an apparently unsorted "mess" of apparently unconnected things was happening? Maybe, however, it is not "the mess" Miriam seemed to think it was when she 'accessed' a not well understood part of her mind/brain system.

Another way to visualize what one would 'see' / 'feel' / 'hear' when connecting into the inner mind (could be called the "unconscious") is to think of a dream as a creative act occurring 'behind' the dream. That is, 'someone' is deciding what the props, statements, expressions on people's face, their movements, the degree that situations will be abstracted, etc., to make possible the dream that one 'sees' (experiences) to be possible. Imagine, however, that your consciousness could link up with the 'creator' processing system making this dream possible. In a way, this would be like watching a play on stage and also seeing, in the exact same time period, all the work by all individuals which went into making the play into the observed reality. Without doubt, 'seeing' all of this would be very much like experiencing a manic episode.

Could it be, therefore, that the ones deemed to be mentally disordered will one day be perceived differently? That they will be greatly valued? Will they eventually be the ones who will tell us the most about the wonderful part of ourselves called "the human brain"? If so, what then will professionals of the future say about the period when these exceptionally wonderful individuals were so greatly harmed under the delusion of helping them? What will they also say when it is recognized that almost all STW kids had been set up to kill themselves and, if failing at this, the mental health professionals would most happily finish the job in one way or another? Should not such behavior by professionals warrant nothing less than something like a Nuremberg Trial?

A 'Psychosis' - Schizophrenia / Eating Disorder / Save-The-World Link?

When I ventured into the "Save-The-World Kid" concept, it was based on  my own experience. I then ventured into discovering what would maybe happen to STW kids in our society and recognized that some of them would certainly receive a "chronic schizophrenia" diagnosis, probably with paranoia also manifesting itself, thus resulting in a "paranoid schizophrenia" diagnosis. The hints also indicated that many individuals with eating disorders would also be in the STW category.

During 1999, I worked online with two 20-year-old females who had anorexia and, among many attributes ('disorders' such as OCD: Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, with one having attempted suicide a number of times), I discovered that both individuals heard "voices"; this is the most common 'delusion' ('psychosis' indicator called "positive symptoms") reported to be manifested by individuals diagnosed with schizophrenia. Both individuals had also withheld this information from professionals, or even from people close to them, which brought up an important question: "Well, if "X" equals one, and two, maybe, what could "X" be?" In other words, I was wondering if, given the same proposed underlying Save-The-World Factor for subgroups diagnosed to be schizophrenic or having Eating Disorders, could the two 'disorders' be more similar than professionals think mostly because important information was withheld from them?

By then, I had leaned that individuals with eating disorders form identities and, as with "gay identities," for example, they often share self-knowledge with each other that they will withhold not only from the general population, but also from therapists and researchers. Maybe, therefore, an individual was 'spilling the beans' with respect to "voices" and I ventured forth on the internet to investigate the possibility. An excellent site on Eating Disorders (by Deborah Simone Fradin) was located at - http://www.mirror-mirror.org/eatdis.htm - which contained a page titled "The Voices From Within" at - http://www.mirror-mirror.org/voice.htm . The highlights from the page written by Colleen Thompson indicate that "hearing voices" is common in eating disorders, and that individuals hearing voices often tell no one this fact about themselves.

Whenever you read about eating disorders or hear people talking about them, you usually hear about the eating disorder behaviors or the emotional issues causing them. It is not very often you hear people talk about the voices that go along with having an eating disorder. I feel it is very important to talk about those voices because they do play a big role in keeping the eating disorder active. They convince us that we are worthless, unlovable, fat, ugly, disgusting, hopeless, and so much more. They convince us that the world would be better off without us and that we deserve to die.

Most eating disorder sufferers are too afraid to reveal to anyone that they hear voices inside their heads. In the beginning, I was afraid to tell anyone because I thought I was crazy and assumed whoever I told would feel the same way and have me locked up somewhere. I can now see that I am not crazy and many people with eating disorders do have these voices.

It is very understandable why victims of eating disorders have so much trouble developing a self-esteem and finding a reason to live. When you have such negative voices yelling at you constantly, it is hard not to believe what they say. You can never feel good about yourself or the things that you do, because whatever you do is just not good enough for those voices.

The nature of "the voices" are also very negative, as they often are for schizophrenic individuals, and the same applies for what has often been called "florid psychoses," such as the ones experienced by Carl Jung, Broken Wings, and others. Why, however, are these scenarios and voices so apocalyptic, when the underlying factor may be something highly positive such as a Save-The-World Factor? The answer to this question may result if we understanding why suicide has been such an intimate 'companion' for me. More insights are also on the horizon if we consider AJC's response to the idea of having a wonderful human world reflected by the absence of the phrase "thank you."

The imagery produced in AJC's mind was the opposite of what the reality would be, meaning that we may have been socially programmed to equate a (promised?) return of paradise on earth to an apocalyptic "end of the world." In other words, for the ones somehow 'connected' to the inner highly positive 'ONE' - which produces a feeling that the world must be saved - having recognized the human world's ugliness has also been recognized. Furthermore, the individual is a representative of this no so nice world which must end - in a symbolic way - and this outcome may become personally real when one's death results via suicide, anorexia, or in other ways.

It is not, however, the wonderful Save-The-World Factor which kills the STW individual, but what society had programmed into their minds to take care of such a major threat to  "the world (social) order."  Therefore, failing to kill themselves, which may also mean 'killing' the Save-The-World Factor within them (the inner 'connection'), there will be an army of 'mental health' professionals well educated and trained to finish the job, should STW kids have failed to self-destruct. Someday, I hope, the human world will change so that the nicest kids in the world will no more be slaughtered as it continues to be their human imposed 'fate'.

Final Word by Miriam

Broken Wings  killed himself in 1997 and I asked Miriam to read his story as made available at a web site dedicated to him by his parents. Her response to the experience was given in an August 4, 1999 email:
Appreciate much the link to the [Broken Wing's] page you sent, though I know not quite how I  feel right now. I was reading the 'story' and what  'touched' me most perhaps was his letter. Why? Because I knew that kid so well. And perhaps that's why I feel kind of desperate? - Reading that, I would say, "yes kid, that's just the way it feels, but, NO, please don't go because of that. I know it's pain, you suffer, but you don't need to. You're too good for that - but what else - what then can I do ? - ????? Just quiet there.. wanna scream now. Will anyone ever know what such a kid is to do live, and not suffer?


Note 1: - References offering a different perspective for at least one subset of individuals who would be diagnosed a schizophrenic.

"The Far Side of Madness," by John Weir Perry. Book review by Robert Couteau. Published in The Bloomsbury Review. March / April 1990. Available at -
http://members.tripod.com/more_couteau/psychosis.htm N/A. Archive Link.

Mental Breakdown as a Healing Process by John Weir Perry, MD.  Interview with JW Perry - excerpted from When The Dream Becomes Real: The Inner Apocalypse in Mythology, Madness, and the Future by Michael O'Callaghan Available at - http://www.global-vision.org/interview/perry.html N/A . Archive Link

Soliloquy or Psychosis? A Cultural Look at Schizophrenia by Michael B. Scher (1994). Available at - http://www.oikos.org/soliloqu.htm N/A. Archive Link.

SCHIZOPHRENIA: A Nonexistent Disease by Lawrence Stevens, J.D. (1998). Available at -
http://dem0nmac.mgh.harvard.edu/forum/SchizophreniaF/6.8.9810.10PMschizophrenia.htm N/A. Archive LinkAlternate Link

Jung on Schizophrenia: An Introductory survey by Víctor Rodríguez.M.D. Psych. Jungian Analyst. Available at - http://www.cgjung.com/cgjung/articles/vrodrig1.html N/A. Alternate Link

Becoming Whole: Applied Psychoses (Analytical Psychology and Zen Buddhism) by Eric Pettifor. Available at - http://www.wynja.com/personality/becomingf.html. Alternate Link

Note 2: - One of the most significant of Jung's experiences leading to his major insights had their roots in observation of schizophrenic individuals as reported by Stevens (1999): "For nine years [previous to 1909] Jung had been conducting a careful study of schizophrenic delusions and hallucinations among patients at the Burghölzli Hospital in Zürich. This had convinced him that there must exist a collective or universal foundation to the human psyche. Not only did the strange ideas, hallucinations and visual images reported by individual schizophrenics resemble those reported by others, but they also bore a startling to the mythogems and religious images which had been widely reported by students of cultural history from all over the world. Jung gathered a wealth of evidence which persuaded him that this universal symbolism was due less to individual experience or cultural dissemination than to the structure of the human brain and to a fundamental component of the unconscious psyche which was shared by all humankind.  [3: pp. 20-1]  With respect to Harry Stack Sullivan, Doug Davis notes that "Sullivan's own mysterious 'schizophrenic' episode during college is recounted in Chapter 19, "The Disappearance of Harry," and Perry links this late adolescent experience with Sullivan's remarkable gift for understanding schizophrenic psychosis in later life."

Note 3: - I am not "absolutely sure" that the "no thank you" applied to Australian Aboriginal People. It was nonetheless produced as a memory, but it could have been 'imagined'. I hope not, and I will eventually check this out. Nonetheless, the meaning of a group of people not having "thank you" in their language would be as stated. By April, 2001, an Aboriginal male - Rodney Junga-Williams, was asked about this. His reply (April 15, 2001) was: "thankyous from my knowledge i believe there to be no known words as we also use sign language and facial expressions and gestures which speak just as loud i wil investigate this further."

"As for 'no thank you's' in Autralian Aboriginal languages, I can say that, at least to my knowledge, I believe there are no known words for this concept. We also use sign language - facial expressions and gestures - that speak just as loud. I will investigate this further with elders."

2.1 Traditional Aboriginal perspectives

The ways of knowing (epistemology) of a cultural group are important to the education of its children. Aboriginal epistemology is conveyed in the particular world view held by Aboriginal society. According to Muir, the world for the traditional Aborigine is made up of entities which are related in an unscientific way (from a Non-Aboriginal perspective) but in a spiritual way which reflects the nature of a universe quite different from a white Australian" (1987: 12).

Muir summarised an account provided by Christie of the traditional aboriginal world view.

The Aboriginal universe is basically one in which physical, scientific qualities are irrelevant and the world takes on meaning through the qualities, relationships and laws laid down in 'the dreaming'. There are a number of striking differences:

The Aboriginal world is not constrained by time or space - the land is still inhabited by the same beings which were involved in its creation - the spirits of dead people are constantly present - ceremonies not only re-enact the activities of ancient heroes but also recreate them.

English words are inadequate to describe this historic and contemporary world.

The value of things lies in their quality and relatedness. In a world made up of objects related through their spiritual essences, rather than their physical properties, counting is irrelevant. Aboriginal languages contain very few numbers and have few terms for the objective contrasting and comparison of physical objects.

Aboriginal society makes an individual's sense of worth depend upon where he or she can fit in it - cooperation rather than competition is valued and fostered (ibid.: 13,14).

A 2007 Addition - A reference to the  expression "thank you" as lacking in one Aborigine language is located in:

Gaines, Patrice (2002). Uluru: sacred ground: finding kinship with Australia's Aborigines at one of their most revered sites - travel. Essence, September. Internet: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1264/is_5_33/ai_90989927 .

 Before we parted, my daughter asked the translator how to say thank you in the native language. "They don't have a word for thank you," he explained. "You see, if someone gives to them, it is understood that the person will give back. That is their way of saying thank you. There is no need for the words."

The above would suggest that the lack of the expression "thank you" is part of a psychology for Aborigines that 'says': 'If I am given something, then it is expected that I will give in return,' meaning that "giving" is apparent conditional. But this may not be so.

In a web page titled "Australian Aborigines" (http://www.everyculture.com/wc/Afghanistan-to-Bosnia-Herzegovina/Australian-Aborigines.html), we read:
Aboriginal people find it odd that non-Aboriginal people say "thank you" all the time. Aboriginal social organization is based on a set of obligations between individuals who are related by blood or marriage. Such obligations do not require any thanks. For example, if a family asks to share a relative's food, the relative is obligated to share without any expectation of gratitude in response. Australians often see this Aboriginal behavior as rude.
Again, this reference leaves much unexplained because Aboriginal people certainly interacted with more people than those "related by blood and marriage" as noted above.

There are references to the expression "thank you" as existing (at least now, or in the more recent past, and maybe only after contact was amde with Europeans) on the following web pages:

Note 4: - On January 21/23, 2000, I was at a Marilyn Manson Forum called "Thoughts." One part of my communication with an individual (AJC, who claimed to have knowledge and understanding beyond what everyone apparently had) began with: "I see you have let little room for having a sense of humour, but I could be wrong. Yet, as the Australian Aboriginal People of Old would say: 'When things get black, we laugh'. They were/are also 'in tune' with something called "dreamtime". What would you think of living in a different human world. Let's say a world where the word "thank you" did not exist?" AJC's answer: "Yes, the outbacks dreamtime is akin to another phorm of meditation elevating consciousness to the hypervirtual, phlat, or wholly linear plane. As phor thank you... that is a word which hardly exists in most capitalistic survivalists handbooks because it shows weakness implying the need for help. But if it didn't exist then we'd be thrown into anarchy or the ultimate last god standing battle."

My Reply: "Once upon a time there was a people that the white 'Christians' deemed to be inferior to them - even evil, one of the reasons being that they did not have a "thank you" in their language. Now imagine a human world where no one would ever think of not helping others, and you will understand why a "thank you" will not exist. Seems that you are incapable of such "thinking"!

These white 'Christians', who were much like you in their 'thinking' kept up their destruction of these "no thank you" people and, even by the 1930s, they would still go out on so called "nigger hunts," as it was reported in a documentary, and do the following. They would tie a man's hands behind his back and then cut off his genitals, leaving him bleed to death. His wife was raped and they then shove a stake up her vagina and kill her that way. A 'game' was then to be played with infants. Buried in the sand with only the child's head above the ground, the 'game' was to see who would kick the baby's head off.

Welcome AJC to the history of Australian Aboriginal People and what people - who were 'thinking' much like you - did to them."

In a follow-up email, an important concept was highlighted based on a statement AJC made which was cited to begin the response: "'But if it didn't exist then we'd be thrown into anarchy or the ultimate last god standing battle.' I have been studying visions called 'psychosis' and, what you said above, is kind of correct. Why? Because this world, as it IS, and HAS BEEN, will most likely wage a major BATTLE to not permit - if possible - a world with no "thank you" to ever become a REALITY."

Email and Message Board Posting to AJC

Later (February 13, 1999), I wrote a note of appreciation and explanation to AJC, posted it at the Message Board, and also sent it to him as an email, The message:


I remember well when you were hit with the implications of your response to the "no thank you" proposition for a human world. You were super distressed, which soon 'told' me that you were up there in terms of emotional development. It was only a little later, however, that I saw the implications of your response.

According to the 'theory', an individual in the STW category would be one (among other manifestations) who is experiencing apocalyptic psychoses - the "Battle of the Titanic Forces": psychological as well as social - or they are processing information at STW perceptual levels. This means that, because of the inner 'connection', which varies in its nature, they will correctly answer the meaning of a "no thank you" human world.

Amazingly, at a more logical level, you also produced the "imagery" equivalent to the STW psychosis, and this is the first time I experienced someone do this. The implications are that this is yet another way to detect very high intelligence of the 'connected' kind which is equivalent to that of Carl Jung. But then, I had always recognized your high intelligence; the 'no-thank-you test' made it possible to recognize your related high level of emotional development which was not that apparent on the message board.

As the result of this experience, made possible from meeting you, I now better recognize what needs to be done with individuals on their way to STW status, and I do not yet understand everything related to this phenomenon. Basically, they are entering something like a clash of cognitive 'structures' or 'systems', the dominating imagery being of "Titanic Battles"; this seems to be a product of social indoctrination which has traditionally produced 'visions' of an apocalypse for what is believe to be "the end of the world" as we know it. This also means, however, the return of paradise (LOVE) on earth.

The objective with one experiencing such psychoses would therefore be to alter the socially learned cognitive structure so that something like a 'suspension bridge' is created to take the person 'where' they would have gone via psychosis. Point is here, however, that the ones on the psychosis pathway have little chance of surviving, and there is a high probability that they we be deemed 'mentally disordered' for life, be given anti-psychotic medication (neuroleptic drugs), and also remain at very high risk for suicide. So, thanks again, AJC, for your contribution. It may one day help to save the lives of the most wonderful kids in the word.

Here is a reference for what I mentioned in term of clashes of cognitive 'structures': - PSYCHOSIS: "Experimental" and Real - by Joe K. Adams. In Psychedelic Review No. 2, at http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/adams.htm .

AJC: I will place this note to you in the above referenced web page, in a NOTE linked to your name in the "Acknowledgments". Hope this is OK. Any comments are appreciated. Thanks again!


Note 5: - At the time (March, 1999) Miriam was quite distressed about having to betray herself to such a degree to make good marks in her criminology course, and I ventured into placing 'her problem' into a historical perspective. I explained that her situation was akin to her now knowing what is accepted in science and 'somehow' going back to the time when Giordano Bruno* was burned at the stake by the Vatican, possibly for teaching that there may be other worlds than our own with life present there. (References below.) Would not a student at that time who 'somehow' had our present knowledge about many things not have completely failed science (Philosophy) courses if they ever dared to state what they knew or 'somehow' suspected? (Many would have been burned alive at the stake too!)  Therefore, Miriam could now perceive herself to be a 'bit' in the future and therefore not feel so bad about the situation, except for the implications about the present state of what is called "knowledge" or even "understanding" for which individuals are given PhDs. the "Ph" meaning "philosophy."

One of the better rendition encountered of what we now call "knowledge and understanding" was articulated in a program series dealing with the universe on an "educational" television network. After noting an old perception of the world as a flat surface held up on the backs of four elephants, an astrophysicists said something like this: "Maybe, in the not so distant future, people will look back at what we believe today - with all our mathematics and physics knowledge - and consider it all to be just as quaint as these old perceptions are now thought to be. If this is likely, psychiatry is therefore certainly in for a a great surprise or the highly revolutionary kind that may well result in emotion devastation for the ones believed to be the professionals called "psychiatrists."

Given what psychiatrists did to homosexual people not all that long ago, I would have to conclude that they have been psychopaths of the "disconnected" kind, as in having been 'disconnected' from their primal biological state. Why do I assert this? Because, by the age of 8-years-old, I was relating sexually with other males and knew fully well what I knew I KNEW as a baby when my diapers were changed. Someone touching me, anywhere, but especially in the genital area, was infinitely more pleasing than touching myself. Therefore the state of affairs on this planet may be rendered by the fact that the majority of males - about 85% of them with European ancestry - 'somehow' believe that they would not enjoy relating sexually with other males. This is the result of socialization and reflects a 'disconnection' from their biological selves, including a total denial of a basic biological property (REALITY) that every child experienced / learned when his/her mother interacted 'sexually' with him/her; Freud assumed that most of us apparently forgot about our first sexual experiences, but maybe not for some individuals! Information related to the often denied (but 'visible') male homosexual potential is available in the adams.htm file. It is interesting that Freud had also recognized that repressed homosexuality of the not so 'invisible' kind was an attribute of many (most?) paranoid schizophrenic individuals.

References: Giordano Bruno:

The Forgotten Philosopher. Available at - http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_kessler/giordano_bruno.html .

The Folly of Giordano Bruno. Available at - http://www.setileague.org/editor/brunoalt.htm .

Giordano Bruno (1548-1600).  available at - http://es.rice.edu/ES/humsoc/Galileo/People/bruno.html .


Note 6: - Craig was initially diagnosed as bipolar (manic depression), which then became "bipolar with psychotic episodes," and he is now diagnosed as schizoaffective. We had talked many times about what was happening in his mind and related issues, which then led to about 60 hours of one-to-one work during which I would assimilate all information related to him, ask for clarifications, and essentially 'become' him so as to sort out what was happening. This was occurring about 6 years ago, however, and had positive results, but I would have done something quite different had I then known what I now suspect to be in such cases. Unfortunately, at the time as well as now, both his psychiatrist and his mother have had great power over him, thus resulting in a diet of very powerful drugs greatly impeding his ability to think, and maybe even what should have been the outcome had he encountered someone like Carl Jung. It is possible that the resolution of 'the problem' would have occurred and then onward to the great accomplishments his mind has often 'told' him that should be which was labeled as pathological "grandiosity."

Note 7 (Added in 2007):

Statements made by Buckminster Fuller about children being born as genius, or as having genius potential (Information supplied by Richard Ramsay):

"Every child is born a genius but is quickly degenuised either by unwitting humans or by physically unfavorable factors of the environment. The bright ones are those who are less damaged than the others." (In a NASA speech, June 1966. Fuller & Applewhite, 1986)

"All children are born geniuses but almost all are swiftly degenuised by environmental events. By environment I mean all of the Universe that is not self." (In a
UNESCO address, 1968. Fuller & Applewhite, 1986)

"It is my conviction, from having watched a great many babies grow up that all of humanity is born a genius and then becomes degenuised very rapidly by unfavorable circumstances and by the frustrations of all their extraordinarily built-in capabilities. Everybody's specialized now. We couldn't be getting ourselves into worse trouble since we also learn that all the biological species became extinct because they overspecialized. So overspecialization is the way to extinction, and society's are all tied up with specialization. Everybody is born to be a comprehensivist. If nature wants to develop a specialist, she'd have you born with one eye and a microscope fastened on to it."  (
In a Transcript by John Donat in "The Listener", Sept. 26, 1968. Fuller & Applewhite, 1986)

"I am grateful for being so generously introduced. But I hasten to point out that all humans are born geniuses. However they are usually degenuised rapidly by perverse circumstances. Most perverse is the ignorantly and lovingly lavished don't  or do that cultivates that which does not 'come naturally,' and discourages much of what does 'come naturally.' There is nothing innately exceptional about me. I was just lucky." 
(In a speech to the American Assn of Museums, Denver, June 2, 1971. Fuller & Applewhite, 1986)

"I became convinced that all life is born as genius but gets to be degenuis-ed very rapidly. I wondered whether it may not be possible then to develop an environment for a new-born life where it would not get degenuis-ed. This is why I became preoccupied with environment. I felt that a little child had what Maharishi is able to regain as human beings; how to break through to those fundamental faculties with which we are all endowed. I had hoped that I might be able to protect what we find in that new-born child, its purity and its brilliant conceptuality, its contact with eternity."  (In
an address at the Univ. of Mass, Amherst, July 22, 1971. Fuller & Applewhite, 1986)

"All children are born genuises. Out of very 1000 some 999 are swiftly and inadvertently degenuised by the grow-ups. Because millions of human beings in all the years of their history have always been born naked, helpless and though superbly equipped cerebrally, utterly lacking in experience, ergo utterly ignorant. Their delicate sensing equipment is as yet untried." 
(In a draft preface for Mrs. John S. Lillard, August 28, 1975. Fuller & Applewhite, 1986)

"Genius does its own thinking - has confidence in its own exploratory finding, has confidence in its own intuitions." (
Fuller & Applewhite, 1986)

"Einstein's genius was synergetic. All genius is synergetic. All children are born geniuses, but most are swiftly degeniused by the power structure's educational system. In the guise of education, the system deliberately breaks up inherently holistic considerations into "elementary" topics." [Fuller & Kuromiya, 1992: p. 37]

Note 8 (Added in 2007):

Buckminster Fuller died at the age of 87 in 1983. In a related article - located at the botton of this web page (http://www.salsburg.com/flyseye/flyseye.html) - the following was reported:
An architect, inventor, writer, futurist, high priest of technology and a college dropout died yesterday. They were all Richard Buckminster Fuller, and he was 87 years old.

Fuller, who devoted himself to saving the world with technology, died at 4:50 pm. of a heart attack at Good Samaritan Hospital as he visited his critically ill wife, Anne, who is a patient there, said a hospital spokeswoman...

In 1927, he attempted suicide (which later became one of his most moving tales while on the lecture circuit). He was still distraught over the death of his young daughter, 4-year old Alexandra, five years earlier, was unemployed, drinking heavily and had just lost some of his friends' money on an abortive business deal.

At that point he couldn't t imagine earning a living because he viewed individual survival as a function of depriving others --the antithesis of his basic philosophy. He resolved to jump into Lake Michigan and end his sorrow and the humiliation of his family, including a new born daughter, Allegra.

He changed his mind only when he became convinced that his original way of thinking was right: that the human species should be a cooperative society and that sensitivity is to be highly prized. Hence, it was not the species but the system that was at fault.

"I decided to commit myself to an experiment," he said during a 1979 lecture at Pasadena's Art Center School of Design. "I decided to find out what an unknown individual might be able to do on behalf of humanity that great nations and private enterprise cannot do. And I'm still finding out." ...
For more information on Buckminster Fuller:
The Vision of Buckminster Fuller - by Celeste Adams.

Richard Buckminster Fuller: Biography by J. J. O'Connor and E. F. Robertson - with links to related information.
R. Buckminster Fuller: A 20th Century Philosopher - by Kirby Urner.

Buckminstre Fuller (Chapter 10: Biography) - by George Szpiro.

Buckminster Fuller - St. James Encyclopedia of Pop Culture - by Michael Baers.

Bucky Fuller: Making A Difference Today - by Lloyd Steven Sieden.

Who was Buckminster Fuller, anyway? - by Amy C. Edmondson.


I greatly thank the many individuals who have made this understanding journey possible, especially Miriam, Richard Ramsay, Broken Wings and his mother, Melissa, Daniele, and all other individuals cited on this page, including AJC.


1. Bertand Russell - Quotations available at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4148/bertrand.html .

2. R. Buckminster Fuller and Kuromiya, Kiyoshi (Adjuvant) (1992.). Cosmography: A posthumous scenario for the future of humanity. Macmillan Publishing, New York.

3. Stevens, Anthony (1999). On Jung: An updated edition with a reply to Jung's critics. Princeton University Press, New Jersey. Book originally published in 1990 - Routledge Edition, 1991 - Penguin Edition.

4. Davis, Doug. Psychology 214a Course Notes. Quoting: Sullivan, HS (1953). The interpersonal theory of psychiatry. New York: Norton. Available at - http://www.haverford.edu/psych/ddavis/sullivan.html .

5. Siebert Al (1996). Similarities Between Nietzsche's Uebermensch and The Survivor Personality. Available at http://www.webcom.com/thrive/schizo/articles/nietz.html#background N/A .Archive LinkAlternate Link

6. Adams, Joe K. PSYCHOSIS: "Experimental" and Real. Psychedelic Review No. 2. Available at http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/adams.htm .
Fuller, R Buckminster, and Applewhite EJ (1986). Synergetics Dictionary : the mind of Buckminster Fuller: with an introduction and appendices. New York: Garland.

Email:   Pierre Tremblay: ----- pierre@youth-suicide.com ----- (403) 245-8827

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